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AMoussa01
Posts: 541
Joined: Jan 08, 2007
Location: St. George and St. Joseph in San Jose California
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 Posted:
Jan 30, 2008 - 07:09 AM |
 
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Hello everyone,
I just want to say that if people plan on writting in this new forum, I hope they have a strong background in the coptic language (in other words, i do not want any info from someone who does not know what they are talking about). My first question is, do you pronounce it "sothees" or "sotees?" And what are the rules regarding the T pronounciation? I think there are some uncommon rules that not all deacons, such as myself, are unaware of regarding situations such as these. If someone can revive these rules, that would be really nice. Anyway, any feedback would be much appreciated...
GB
Tony |
_________________
Tony Moza,
HCOC Distant Member
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Ramez Mikhail
Posts: 1783
Joined: Sep 15, 2002
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Jan 30, 2008 - 07:17 AM |
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I have no education in Coptic, so I apologize in advance, but you asked about a word that is in fact Greek and quoted from an entirely Greek hymn "Sothees ameen kai tw pnevmati sou"
If you want to know what the Greek pronunciation is, it is sothees for sure. Theta is NEVER pronounced as a T in Greek unless you are talking about Greek in the 5th or 6th centuries BC. |
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AMoussa01
Posts: 541
Joined: Jan 08, 2007
Location: St. George and St. Joseph in San Jose California
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Jan 30, 2008 - 07:28 AM |
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One of the reasons i ask is because in the HCOC productions, i could swear i hear them say "Tees" and in the hymn "Agios," i hear "Genetees." Both are greek and the modo for HCOC is to pronounce the coptic and greek correctly and since both are greek by origin, it wouldn't make sense to pronounce them as "T." Maybe im just slowly going deff from all those years of blasting alhan in my car...can someone double check? Also, i believe i have heard about pronouncing it as "T" but im not sure how credible it is...can anyone clarify??
Ramez, you mentioned something about a change in the 5th or 6th century... is this change still implemented in the greek language? Do the greeks follow this trend?
GB
Tony |
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ophadeece
Posts: 131
Joined: Oct 01, 2007
Location: Newcastle, UK
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Jan 30, 2008 - 01:14 PM |
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Dear AMoussa01,
I have to confess at first that I am not very well-informed in Coptic language as may be other members, but I will tell you my understanding from participating in many of these discussions.
Now, to begin with, Coptic as a language has not evolved (or might have to a little extent), before it ceased to be a language of communication around the eleventh to the fourteenth century, when Arabic replaced it as the language of communication in Egypt. When it first developed as a descendant of other pharaonic dialects it borrowed words from the Greek language, and indeed the alphabet as a whole (barring seven letters without match). The phonetics rules of the Greek language at that time applied to Coptic. Then, theets was "t", even tav was "d" (based on studies by deacon Emil Maher; who is now Fr. Shenouda Maher).
BUT, the Greek language kept evolving, as any other language of communication on earth (save Arabic!!!), and phonetics rules changed. What happened was, in the nineteenth century, Pope Cyril IV, in an attempt of bringing the two churches closer, namely the Coptic Orthodox and its Greek counterpart, assigned the revival of the Greek language and hence pronunciation and phonetics rules, to some people (mainly as I understand Mr. Erian Guirguis), who mistakenly applied the modern phonetics rules to the Coptic language. This caused a great deal of confusion between what has been handed down as a language in hymns, and what was newly taught by those teachers. This was further complicated by the fact that Alexandria library was burnt down by muslims, who never left anything to do with the philosophies, and of course the rites and knowledge of Coptics of the past. In addition, as if being something of little importance, old psalmodies and hymn books were used by people to light up their fireplaces to bake bread. So Coptic language lost its identity.
There is a movement of reviving the true Coptic language nowadays by some people, and I think Remenkimi who is one of the members on this website is much more well-informed than I am, who can give you a clearer view.
So, now you know the answer of your question: it is "sotis" - simply because this hymn was taken from the Greek thousands of years ago, and you can't apply the modern Greek tongue on it, and ignore the Coptic one, or you would have two forms of pronunciation in one church, which is completely impragmatic.
I hope I have been clear in my reply.
God bless you all and pray for us a lot |
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Iqbal
Posts: 127
Joined: Nov 14, 2004
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Jan 30, 2008 - 01:14 PM |
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Theeta is pronounced 'th' in all cases except when it follows a shai, seema, or tav--then it is pronounced 't' (it was supposedly always pronounced 't' in old Bohairic). |
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ophadeece
Posts: 131
Joined: Oct 01, 2007
Location: Newcastle, UK
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Jan 30, 2008 - 01:21 PM |
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Dear Iqbal,
I don't think there is what is called old Bohairic and new Bohairic, is it?
God bless you and pray for us a lot |
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Iqbal
Posts: 127
Joined: Nov 14, 2004
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Jan 30, 2008 - 02:26 PM |
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It's just a term of convenience that is sometimes used to distinguish it from the so-called Graeco-Bohairic, that's all. You and I would probably prefer to term it "genuine" or "original" or "authentic" bohairic or something along those lines. |
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raymondd
Posts: 14
Joined: Mar 11, 2004
Location: Boston, MA
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Jan 30, 2008 - 04:13 PM |
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The Greek wors for saved is "Sotees" and you will find it all over the place in our prayers, like Soteer=savior or soteria=salvation. and this is the pronunciation in modern greek also, I have a greek friend named sotierus=savior.
Soteria is written with "tau=T" in greek, not with theta (if you have a greek bible, see the first word in Luke 1:71). and pronounced as "T" as well
the reason it is written with Theta in coptic because theta used to be the letter that is pronounces "T" not "TH" in Bohairic as mentioned before in an earlier post.
The letter "T" in bohairic used to be pronounced "D". so our forefathers wrote the greek word Soteer with a "TH" and pronounced "T"
It is save to say that the correct pronunciation is "Soteer" both in Greek and Coptic. |
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Ramez Mikhail
Posts: 1783
Joined: Sep 15, 2002
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Jan 30, 2008 - 04:37 PM |
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Guys, please..
Raymondd, your little explanation sounds nice but its simply not true. Swthys is a passive singular verb from Swzw, and all passive verbs have the Theta+Eita part to distinguish them from active verbs. The spelling we have in our books has nothing to do with Coptic phonetics as far as i can tell.
Now as far as pronunciation, Iqbal is correct in Greco-Bohairic rules. For example, we pronounce the theta in esthoinoufi as a T not a TH. I was simply telling you guys what the Greek would be.
Amoussa,
This change carries on till today. We are talking 5 or 6 centuries before Christ, so as far as we are concerned Theta has always been a TH in Greek.
by the way, this change also happened to Phi, which used to be an aspirated P sound. So if we are going to argue that Theta is T in greek, lets also pronounce the Phi as a P  |
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Biboboy
Posts: 726
Joined: Sep 28, 2004
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Jan 31, 2008 - 08:09 AM |
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Agape,
Speaking of "Swthees"... is it "swthees" as in the aorist passive subjunctive second person singular, which would be "swthwmen" in the first person plural?
I just want to clarify because I've heard an opinion (based on one manuscript) that has "swtheesomen" instead of "swthees amen," and although the translator's intention was to make it say "we are saved" instead of "you are saved," I don't know how "swthees" could be conjugated as "swtheesomen." |
_________________
"Our hearts are restless until they find rest in You, Lord" (St. Augustine, Confessions, I, 1).
"Pray gently and calmly,
Chant hymns with understanding and rhythm;
Then you will soar like a young eagle
High in the heavens"
+ St. Evagrius the Solitary, On Prayer, 82.
In Christ,
Bishoy
HCOC Member
+ To Protect and Preserve +
HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!
Questions or comments on the copticheritage.org website? E-mail me! |
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abahoor
Posts: 362
Joined: Feb 15, 2004
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Jan 31, 2008 - 05:10 PM |
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| Biboboy wrote: |
Agape,
Speaking of "Swthees"... is it "swthees" as in the aorist passive subjunctive second person singular, which would be "swthwmen" in the first person plural?
I just want to clarify because I've heard an opinion (based on one manuscript) that has "swtheesomen" instead of "swthees amen," and although the translator's intention was to make it say "we are saved" instead of "you are saved," I don't know how "swthees" could be conjugated as "swtheesomen." |
this is the response:
Cw;ic `amyn@ ke tw `pneumati cou.
Save Amen. And with your spirit.
similar ti what we say in liturgy:
Cw;ic `amyn@ ke tw `pneumati cou@ meta vobou :eou `proc,wmen.
Saved Amen. And with your spirit. In the fear of God, let us attend.
i think it refers to "you saved", being the priest not "we" being the people. Because they are the ones who are presenting the sacrifice. |
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Ramez Mikhail
Posts: 1783
Joined: Sep 15, 2002
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Jan 31, 2008 - 06:48 PM |
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I dont think it would be Swthwmen, but I will check back on that.
My endings are dying one by one  |
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AMoussa01
Posts: 541
Joined: Jan 08, 2007
Location: St. George and St. Joseph in San Jose California
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Jan 31, 2008 - 07:55 PM |
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Thank you Iqbal for the rules.
| abahoor wrote: |
| Biboboy wrote: |
Agape,
Speaking of "Swthees"... is it "swthees" as in the aorist passive subjunctive second person singular, which would be "swthwmen" in the first person plural?
I just want to clarify because I've heard an opinion (based on one manuscript) that has "swtheesomen" instead of "swthees amen," and although the translator's intention was to make it say "we are saved" instead of "you are saved," I don't know how "swthees" could be conjugated as "swtheesomen." |
this is the response:
Cw;ic `amyn@ ke tw `pneumati cou.
Save Amen. And with your spirit.
similar ti what we say in liturgy:
Cw;ic `amyn@ ke tw `pneumati cou@ meta vobou :eou `proc,wmen.
Saved Amen. And with your spirit. In the fear of God, let us attend.
i think it refers to "you saved", being the priest not "we" being the people. Because they are the ones who are presenting the sacrifice. |
I just want to address something you said. The priest is not the one who is being sacrificed on our behalf-that would be Christ himself. So it would not make any sense to say the priest "saved" anyone. There is a difference between presenting the sacrifice and being the sacrifice.
GB
Tony |
_________________
Tony Moza,
HCOC Distant Member
+ To Protect and Preserve +
HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it! |
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abahoor
Posts: 362
Joined: Feb 15, 2004
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| Posted:
Jan 31, 2008 - 08:55 PM |
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| AMoussa01 wrote: |
Thank you Iqbal for the rules.
| abahoor wrote: |
| Biboboy wrote: |
Agape,
Speaking of "Swthees"... is it "swthees" as in the aorist passive subjunctive second person singular, which would be "swthwmen" in the first person plural?
I just want to clarify because I've heard an opinion (based on one manuscript) that has "swtheesomen" instead of "swthees amen," and although the translator's intention was to make it say "we are saved" instead of "you are saved," I don't know how "swthees" could be conjugated as "swtheesomen." |
this is the response:
Cw;ic `amyn@ ke tw `pneumati cou.
Save Amen. And with your spirit.
similar ti what we say in liturgy:
Cw;ic `amyn@ ke tw `pneumati cou@ meta vobou :eou `proc,wmen.
Saved Amen. And with your spirit. In the fear of God, let us attend.
i think it refers to "you saved", being the priest not "we" being the people. Because they are the ones who are presenting the sacrifice. |
I just want to address something you said. The priest is not the one who is being sacrificed on our behalf-that would be Christ himself. So it would not make any sense to say the priest "saved" anyone. There is a difference between presenting the sacrifice and being the sacrifice.
GB
Tony |
well i don't mean the priest is the savior cuz if he was, he would be the one that would be saying saved, not the deacon or the people. what am saying is tha he is the one who IS SACRIFICING, puting Christ in the tomb and breaking his body at the end. that is just an opinion...i'll search more about it. |
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Remnkemi
Ask me for help!
Posts: 679
Joined: Apr 07, 2003
Location: Boston, MA USA
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Feb 01, 2008 - 02:22 AM |
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Ok, let me see how I can contribute.
Let me first start by stating a few givens that people seem to forget or ignore or are not cognisant about them.
1. Every language evolves. Some more than others. It is usually geographically influenced and that is how "dialects" are formed. And yes even Arabic evolved. The simple proof of this is that Iraqi Arabic sounds different than Syrian Arabic than Lebenese Arabic than Egyptian Arabic. Egyptian Arabic is the most popular. This leads me to my second point.
2. The changes in Egyptian Arabic are very similar to the changes in Coptic. For example, we all know Upper Egyptian Arabic (UEA) sounds very different than Lower Egyptian/Cairene Egyptian Arabic (CA). Examples include, a /j/ instead of /g/ like /jaa/ (He came) in Upper Egyptian Arabic (UEA) versus /gaa/ (He came) in Cairene Arabic (CA). This is identical to Sahidic Coptic (SC) (and OB) vs. GB. SC pronounces
gene;lion
as /jen et LI on/, while "proper" GB pronounces it /gen eth LI on/. Notice the first syllable is different. Just like SC uses a soft /j/ sound, UEA uses a soft /j/ sound. Both are from upper Egypt. Conversely, both language pronunciation schemes from Lower Egypt, both CA and GB, use a hard /g/.
3. Notice I said proper GB. What most people pronounce is not CONSISTENT proper GB. But as I said before, I really don't know what proper GB is. There is no consistency. Since GB is artificial, the rules change (become corrupted is a better description) from teacher to teacher. In the example above, nearly all cantors pronounce
gene;lion
as /jen eth li ON/. The stress is placed on the last syllable and the first syllable is pronounced under Sahidic/Old Bohairic Coptic, not GB.
4. Regarding
cw;ic
. The theta in Coptic is not like Greek and not like English. The sound is foreign to Greek and English speakers and it died out in Arabic. The correct pronounciation of theta in Coptic is a very light /dth/, somewhere in between THe and moTHer. It is nowhere near /noTHing/. If you don't understand what I'm saying, say the first line of the Thanksgiving prayer out loud and record it. Notice when you get to "the" in "Let us give thanks to THE beneficent..", it is a very, very light /dth/ sound. You say it very fast and as a result it is a very light /dth/ sound.. If you think about it too much, you will unconsciously overstress the word. In Arabic the /th/ sound died out and became an /s/ sound, like /salasa/ (three) instead of /thalatha/. In Coptic, the theta sound is identical to the Arabic letter zal. The proper way to say "He tasted" in Arabic is /dhaka/, not /zaka/ nor the Cairene /daa/. So
cw;ic
in "proper" GB is /SO dthis/ Do you see what I'm getting at? Now keep in mind, the Coptic /dh/ is so close to /t/ that nearly every Coptic word is pronounced /t/, not /dth/. This pronunciation shift is actually very natural and permissible. See Coptic Sounds by Worrel. So
cw;ic
is "properly" pronounced /SO tes/.
5. Bibo, I am not surprised that someone is teaching
cwteicwmen
instead of
cw;ic amyn
. This is one more example that GB teachers are corrupting the pronunciation rules. To me, this is complete nonsense and easily explainable. Copyists of Coptic manuscripts (between 5th-17th centuries) often corrupted Greek words, sometimes because of geographical influences but mainly because they didn't need to know Coptic to copy Coptic manuscripts. There are many examples of copyists changing words where they thought necessary, which actually turned out to be wrong. And unforetunately, people think that if a Church book, especially an old one, has something written it must be more authentic. Since Copts don't know Greek and Greeks don't know Coptic, who do you ask about Greek loan words in Coptic?
I hope I didn't confuse anybody. Keep asking questions because in my experience, when it comes to the Coptic language, everybody has questions but no one asks.
George |
Last edited by Remnkemi on Feb 07, 2008 - 07:56 PM; edited 1 time in total |
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abahoor
Posts: 362
Joined: Feb 15, 2004
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Feb 01, 2008 - 02:41 AM |
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well this is so nice Remnkemi....and i would have many question but it's just the u right to much text..... but it's all good.
now i have a huge quetion. the word
ar,y
. i have seen it in books be spelled with an
y
and
i
. is there a rule of that spelling, or it's just
ar,y
as it is. cuz i am editing all of my text and am trying to unify everything i have. |
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Ramez Mikhail
Posts: 1783
Joined: Sep 15, 2002
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Feb 01, 2008 - 05:29 AM |
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Abahoor,
It is Arxy with an H not an I. |
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abahoor
Posts: 362
Joined: Feb 15, 2004
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Feb 01, 2008 - 06:30 AM |
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| Ramez Mikhail wrote: |
Abahoor,
It is Arxy with an H not an I. |
more than one source have both in he same book but in differnet hymns and cases.
| Remnkemi wrote: |
Ok, let me see how I can contribute.
In Coptic, the theta sound is identical to the Arabic letter zal. The proper way to say "He tasted" in Arabic is /dhaka/, not /zaka/ nor the Cairene /daa/. So
cw;ic
in "proper" GB is /SO dthis/ Do you see what I'm getting at? Now keep in mind, the Coptic /dh/ is so close to /t/ that nearly every Coptic word is pronounced /t/, not /dth/. This pronunciation shift is actually very natural and permissible. See Coptic Sounds by Worrel. So
cw;ic
is "properly" pronounced /SO tes/.
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i read it again in more details i thought what is the "proper" GB?? because here you're say that the theeta is like the dthal in arabic. whihc is not the case cuz the theeta is the theh in arabic. |
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ophadeece
Posts: 131
Joined: Oct 01, 2007
Location: Newcastle, UK
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Feb 01, 2008 - 11:19 AM |
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Dear abahoor,
It seems you mixed up two things Remenkimi has said. First in Greco-Bohairic (which he doesn't believe in) it is supposed to be "t" - but because many teachers don't agree on any one rule, it is left to each one's personal opinion. But in proper Coptic (be it Old Bohairic, or Sahidic) it is "dth", like the sound of the letter "dthal" in Arabic.
Dear Remenkimi,
Was the hori pronounced as the Arabic letter "hah" (the sixth in Arabic alphabet)? Was there a letter matching the "3ein" in Arabic?
I also disagree with you about the point that Arabic evolved. It didn't as far as the formal language is concerned. What you rightly mentioned are the informal dialects, which of course have evolved a great deal being geographically influenced, as in the case of Egyptian Arabic, being influenced very much by the Coptic. I hope I am clear in what I am saying.
God bless you all and pray for us a lot |
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Remnkemi
Ask me for help!
Posts: 679
Joined: Apr 07, 2003
Location: Boston, MA USA
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Feb 02, 2008 - 02:17 AM |
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| abahoor wrote: |
| i read it again in more details i thought what is the "proper" GB?? because here you're say that the theeta is like the dthal in arabic. whihc is not the case cuz the theeta is the theh in arabic. |
Abahoor, the theeta in Coptic sounds like the dthal. This is only pronunciation. The orthograph theta in Coptic, in laymen's term - the physical letter that you write down, roughly matches theh in Arabic. But there is a difference between a letter's pronunciation and a letter's placement in an alphabet.
George |
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Remnkemi
Ask me for help!
Posts: 679
Joined: Apr 07, 2003
Location: Boston, MA USA
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Feb 02, 2008 - 02:30 AM |
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| ophadeece wrote: |
Dear abahoor,
It seems you mixed up two things Remenkimi has said. First in Greco-Bohairic (which he doesn't believe in) it is supposed to be "t" - but because many teachers don't agree on any one rule, it is left to each one's personal opinion. But in proper Coptic (be it Old Bohairic, or Sahidic) it is "dth", like the sound of the letter "dthal" in Arabic. |
One correction. All Coptic dialects pronounce the letter theta as dth. Even GB's rule for theta is /dth/. The problem is practical application. People pronounce it as a heavy /th/.
| Quote: |
Dear Remenkimi,
Was the hori pronounced as the Arabic letter "hah" (the sixth in Arabic alphabet)? |
I don't know. I think yes but I'll check the Coptic Encyclopedia.
| Quote: |
| Was there a letter matching the "3ein" in Arabic? |
Yes. It is a double alpha or
aa
. 3ein was used in heiroglyphics but died out in Demotic. It only reappered when the Arabs forced Copts to speak in Arabic. So Copts wrote Arabic words in Coptic letters to learn Arabic. Arabic words with 3ein were transcribed as
aa
. It's not natural in Coptic.
| Quote: |
| I also disagree with you about the point that Arabic evolved. It didn't as far as the formal language is concerned. What you rightly mentioned are the informal dialects, which of course have evolved a great deal being geographically influenced, as in the case of Egyptian Arabic, being influenced very much by the Coptic. |
How do you define a formal language and informal language. Linguists cannot do it. Is pre-Islam Arabic considered formal? Or is Koranic Arabic considered formal? Is Christian Arabic, even Christian Coptic Arabic formal or informal? All of these are geographically influenced. Linguists define language in language families that are geographically defined, ie, Asiatic language, Semitic languages, Indian, etc. Keep the discussion up.
George |
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abahoor
Posts: 362
Joined: Feb 15, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 02, 2008 - 06:45 AM |
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wow....am sorry but that is a new weird thing i hear. the only time that i would say the Theeta as a dthal is when saying
e;be
but not much of other words. other way you always say it as a theeta, theh.
that way makes since, why, becuase for the dthal sound you have the delta, which sounds either as a dthal or a dal.
so for theeta, it sounds either theeh, or teeh. don't you think there is connection in arabic where the only thing diffrent between a dal and a dthal is one dot.....same to the theeh and teh??!!
also am still waiting for a response about the arshee word george.... |
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Remnkemi
Ask me for help!
Posts: 679
Joined: Apr 07, 2003
Location: Boston, MA USA
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| Posted:
Feb 02, 2008 - 11:26 PM |
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| abahoor wrote: |
| wow....am sorry but that is a new weird thing i hear. the only time that i would say the Theeta as a dthal is when saying
e;be
but not much of other words. other way you always say it as a theeta, theh. |
Abahoor, would you pronounce
e;be
as "ezvete" or "edth vete"? Most people pronounce it as "ezvete" which is not accurate. It should be "edth vete".
| Quote: |
| also am still waiting for a response about the arshee word george.... |
Both are correct. Depending on which manuscript you look at, you'll see
ar,y
and
ar,i
.
ar,y
is more popular. Keep in mind, unlike English, Coptic can have two spellings for one word.
George |
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coptichymns.net
Sharing the Joy of Coptic Hymns Around the World
Need help? - Post here.
Comment or criticism? - Use our Feedback Form |
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abahoor
Posts: 362
Joined: Feb 15, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 03, 2008 - 01:20 AM |
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| Remnkemi wrote: |
| abahoor wrote: |
| wow....am sorry but that is a new weird thing i hear. the only time that i would say the Theeta as a dthal is when saying
e;be
but not much of other words. other way you always say it as a theeta, theh. |
Abahoor, would you pronounce
e;be
as "ezvete" or "edth vete"? Most people pronounce it as "ezvete" which is not accurate. It should be "edth vete".
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well i say "edthve" why, cuz it's very hard to say "ethve"....but my point is that the dthal sound is not set up for a theeta but rather a delta.
| Quote: |
| Quote: |
| also am still waiting for a response about the arshee word george.... |
Both are correct. Depending on which manuscript you look at, you'll see
ar,y
and
ar,i
.
ar,y
is more popular. Keep in mind, unlike English, Coptic can have two spellings for one word. |
so there is no rule for the spelling.....cuz i thought it depends on the word after. well i guess it would be right to just use "
ar,y
as a main way to spell in ALL cases and church texts...as a way to unify the text ya3ny..... |
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Ramez Mikhail
Posts: 1783
Joined: Sep 15, 2002
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| Posted:
Feb 03, 2008 - 07:16 AM |
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Again, not that it bears any effect on the Coptic Church's spelling decisions, but in Greek it is strictly Arxh with an H. meaning beginning, authority, leadership...etc |
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