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mikokiko
Posts: 1233
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
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Jul 06, 2010 - 01:23 PM |
 
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Why does a lot of the writings of the Church Fathers posed to be horribly Antisemitic? It seems like the Church was so vehemently opposed to the Jews throughout her earlier history. Just a glance through the quotes (especially St. John Chrysostom) of the Church Fathers through the wikipedia article on Christian Antisemitism, makes you really shiver and think twice about what they said: "...Ephraim the Syrian wrote polemics against Jews in the fourth century, including the repeated accusation that Satan dwells among them as a partner. These writings were directed at Christians who were being proselytized by Jews and who Ephraim feared were slipping back into the religion of Judaism; thus he portrayed the Jews as enemies of Christianity, like Satan, to emphasize the contrast between the two religions, namely, that Christianity was Godly and true and Judaism was Satanic and false. Like John Chrysostom, his objective was to dissuade Christians from reverting to Judaism by emphasizing what he saw as the wickedness of the Jews and their religion.
In his Dialog of Justin, Philosopher and Martyr, with Trypho, a Jew, the Christian scholar Justin Martyr advanced arguments for the truth of Christianity and wrote to his imaginary Jewish opponent: "You think that these words refer to the stranger and the proselytes, but in fact they refer to us who have been illumined by Jesus. For Christ would have borne witness even to them; but now you are become twofold more the children of Hell, as He said Himself."[3]
Saint Jerome (374-419 CE) - He denounced Jews as "Judaic serpents of whom Judas was the model." In his The Jews in the Roman Empire (Les Juifs dan L'Empire Romain) [Is this really a work by Jerome, or a modern history?] he wrote: "The Jews seek nothing but to have children, possess riches and be healthy. They seek all earthly things, but think nothing of heavenly things; for this reason they are mercenaries."
Saint John Chrysostom (ca 344 - 407 CE) - wrote of the Jews and of Judaizers in eight homilies Adversus Judaeos, Against The Jews (or Against the Judaizers) [4]. These quotes are translations from the original Greek posted by Paul Halsall: other researchers give slightly different translations.
"Shall I tell you of their plundering, their covetousness, their abandonment of the poor, their thefts, their cheating in trade? the whole day long will not be enough to give you an account of these things. But do their festivals have something solemn and great about them? They have shown that these, too, are impure." (Homily I, VII, 1)
"But before I draw up my battle line against the Jews, I will be glad to talk to those who are members of our own body, those who seem to belong to our ranks although they observe the Jewish rites and make every effort to defend them. Because they do this, as I see it, they deserve a stronger condemnation than any Jew." (HOMILY IV, II, 4)
"Are you Jews still disputing the question? Do you not see that you are condemned by the testimony of what Christ and the prophets predicted and which the facts have proved? But why should this surprise me? That is the kind of people you are. From the beginning you have been shameless and obstinate, ready to fight at all times against obvious facts." (HOMILY V, XII, 1)
...Saint Fulgentius of Ruspe (467-533 CE) - In his "Writings", written about 510 CE, he states "Hold most firmly and doubt not that not all the pagans, but also all the Jews, heretic and schismatics who depart from the present life outside the Catholic Church, are about to go into eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (See also: Extra ecclesiam nulla salus.) |
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CopticSoldier
Posts: 836
Joined: Jan 24, 2004
Location: Melbourne, Australia.
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Jul 08, 2010 - 05:48 AM |
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Hi Mikokiko,
I think I might be missing something here but what is it that you are angling at?
I think you'll find that there are large bodies of patristic opinion not unlike these against pretty much every single heresy including Arians, Nestorian and Gnostics. The other day I was reading something by St Gregory the Theologian against Eumonius where he wrote a passage which is almost a carbon copy of St John Chrysostom above except with Eumonianism replacing Judaism.
I think we always need to bear in mind that we live in a secular and relativistic society and there is a lot of force and pressure on all religions to be inclusive and tolerant of each other, all that the fathers would have been concerned with is the perpetual revelation of the truth.
The word heresy in Greek when first written by St Paul is known in modern language as being serious doctrinal offence but the native word St Paul used actually means little more than - private opinion. This is significant because St Paul goes on to set two ways, the way handed down by the apostles and private opinion.
There is a clear duty and obligation of the church to stand against prevailing attitudes and thoughts in modern society where they dilute or distort knowledge of the truth.
Knowing that these verses regarding Judaism can have others relating to every other ancient religion of the time (your last quote by St Fulgentius is a great example of what I'm talking about) do you still have an issue?
God bless,
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mikokiko
Posts: 1233
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
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Jul 08, 2010 - 11:32 AM |
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Not really actually  ...it's all very understandable when looked at in context. But there are many passages that I have read that pass out from doctrinal differences, to smashing the actual character of the Jews in general. Calling them filthy liars, and worshipers of Satans, and abusers of people's money and so on (as is found in Against the Jews in St. JOhn Chrysostom's Homily). There are some, and I kid you not, that asked for them to be killed. These things go over the criticism of their doctrines.
God Bless |
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Truth.Seeker
Posts: 806
Joined: Feb 25, 2008
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Jul 09, 2010 - 06:47 AM |
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The "over-the-top" (by today's politically correct standards of writing) statements by the Fathers were said just as well of the pagans - it's not anti-semitism per se, it's anti non-Christian thought. |
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mikokiko
Posts: 1233
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
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Jul 10, 2010 - 04:55 AM |
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To me criticism of Judaism, and Judaic thoughts is not a problem at all. The problem I find (that I deem anti-Christian) is the great feats of mockery and diatribes of their character. In such a way that they would entertain their inferior positions in society (in some cases speaking of their killing).
God Bless |
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Meghalo05
Posts: 364
Joined: Jan 17, 2005
Location: St. Mary and St. Mark Coptic Orthodox Church of Indianapolis, IN
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Jul 14, 2010 - 05:50 PM |
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Mikokiko,
I agree with you 100%. I started a thread long ago regarding the Anti-Semitism in our Paschal prayers. Specifically, the Expositions. This bothered me also because I know the expositions were written in recent centuries, and not by the Fathers. All the Anti-Semitism is wrong, it does not exhume the proper Aghape Christian thought. What if a Jew were to come to our church during Pascha Week and hear some of the things written? Oh my what would he think regarding the "love" of Christianity? |
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CopticSoldier
Posts: 836
Joined: Jan 24, 2004
Location: Melbourne, Australia.
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Jul 18, 2010 - 12:18 AM |
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| Meghalo05 wrote: |
Mikokiko,
I agree with you 100%. I started a thread long ago regarding the Anti-Semitism in our Paschal prayers. Specifically, the Expositions. This bothered me also because I know the expositions were written in recent centuries, and not by the Fathers. All the Anti-Semitism is wrong, it does not exhume the proper Aghape Christian thought. What if a Jew were to come to our church during Pascha Week and hear some of the things written? Oh my what would he think regarding the "love" of Christianity? |
Probably the exact same thing that a Jehovas witness or Mormon would if they came into a church when there was youth meeting on cults?
If you want to see anti-semitism open Jermeiah, Ezekiel or any of the minor or major prophets, sorry to labour this point but political correctness shouldn't pevert defence of Chrisitan Dogma and way of life. |
_________________
Email me: droo@coptichymns.net
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mikokiko
Posts: 1233
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
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Jul 18, 2010 - 01:48 AM |
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Coptic Soldier,
you don't seem to understand my point of contention. My disagreement here is not with our criticism of different religious perspectives (be they Jewish, Mormon, or Jehovah's Witness, or Islam). My point of contention is with the passing over from this simple criticism to making statements that Jews are worshipers of Satan, all of them robbers, haters of Christians, and abusers of women and children. These things are uncalled for. Never is it right to paint a picture of an entire group of people with an evil image. This is what I call bigotry and prejudice. But it would be laughable for anyone to consider criticism of religious perspective a form of bigotry because, it is a criticism of viewpoints and ideologies, NOT of people's character. Many of these Church Fathers, like St. Augustine, entertained the idea of keeping Jews in a subjugated inferior position in society. Is that Christ-like?
God Bless |
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mikokiko
Posts: 1233
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
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Jul 18, 2010 - 02:15 AM |
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For example, here is some of what St. John Chrysostom said in his Against the Jews:
"The Jews are more savage than any highwaymen and do greater harm to those who have fallen among them. They do not simply strip off their victim’s clothes nor inflict wounds on his body as did those robbers on the road to Jericho. Rather, the Jews mortally hurt their victim’s soul, inflicting ten thousand wounds, and leave it lying in a pit of ungodliness…Do you not realize how they laugh at you, scoff at you, jeer at you, dishonor you, and reproach you? Even if they do not do it openly, do you not understand that they are doing this deep down in their hearts?"
Or:
"The Jews are the most miserable and wretched of all men, and therefore we must make secure the flock of Christ. As long as no wild beast disturbs the flock, shepherds, as they stretch out under an oak or pine tree and play their flutes, let their sheep go off to graze with full freedom. But when the shepherds feel that the wolves will raid, they are quick to throw down the flute and pick up their slingshots; they cast aside the pipe of reeds and arm themselves with clubs and stones."
Sounds a lot like Qur'an to me, don't you think so?
St. Augustine said:
"...the Church admits and avows the Jewish people to be cursed, because after killing Christ they continue to till the ground of an earthly circumcision, an earthly Sabbath, an earthly passover, while the hidden strength or virtue of making known Christ, which this tilling contains, is not yielded to the Jews while they continue in impiety and unbelief, for it is revealed in the New Testament. While they will not turn to God, the veil which is on their minds in reading the Old Testament is not taken away... the Jewish people, like Cain, continue tilling the ground, in the carnal observance of the law, which does not yield to them its strength, because they do not perceive in it the grace of Christ"
It's funny that many of these fathers put all the blame of Christ's crucifixion on the Jews. But what about the Romans? They were just as much a part of it as them, and were the ones who physically conducted it. They seem to have horribly forgotten (pushing aside the spiritual principle for the physical) the spiritual principle, that anyone who has ever sinned, pushed Jesus, who by His own will, to take up that Cross and die on it. Perhaps many of us would have been found that day, pointing and jeering at Him as He walked up mount Golgotha. We can only hope to be like the Centurion who acclaimed His Divinity, and the Right Hand Thief. But Christ's crucifixion is supposed to bring all of us to look inward and reflect on our sins to cause Him to die for us. Unfortunately, many of our church fathers took the Crucifixion as an opportunity to ruthlessly lampoon the Jews.
God Bless |
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aiernovi
Posts: 15
Joined: Mar 17, 2008
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Jul 18, 2010 - 11:50 AM |
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Just to add a different perspective, our church has Jewish converts to Christianity and they were more than offended during Pascha prayers even though they were members of our church.
We can call Jewish Theology and Dogma wrong and show what is right all we want. That is actually expected of us. Personal attacks however, are neither warranted no beneficial. What benefit is there from calling Jews "savages" as was quoted above? I think, while it may have been acceptable at the time of the writings, in our current atmosphere, we have to be careful to preach the truth and combat relativism, while at the same time being sensitive and understanding to people's concerns |
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Ranya+++
Posts: 77
Joined: Jul 30, 2005
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Jul 18, 2010 - 12:45 PM |
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I probably don't have a place in this thread, but I'll give it a try. I also just skimmed through all of the posts (I didn't read everything).
I think what's really being discussed on this thread are the sins of our Early Church Fathers. I think this may be a coincidence because I e-mailed a very good friend with some questions I had regarding St. John Chrysostom, as I just started reading a compilation of some of St. John Chrysostom's homilies in a book titled, "On Living Simply." Anyhow, my correspondence with my friend led to some of the issues that are being discussed in this thread.
My main purpose of starting to read the writings of the Early Church Fathers is to benefit spiritually. I may not agree with everything they wrote, but the truth is God worked through our Early Church Fathers.
We can start shinning the light on their sins, or we can learn from the good that they offered our Church. We can say that some of the Church Fathers humiliated people and did so many other bad things, but are we forgetting that we are sinners too? The Early Church Fathers struggled with their own sins, just like we are struggling with our own sins. They were not perfect, just like we are not perfect. The only One who is perfect and is without any sin is Our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ +
My friend quoted St. John Chrysostom in an article he wrote about him, and St. John Chrysostom said, “We can do no good thing at all...except we are aided from above." All of the good that is in us comes from God.
We also shouldn’t make comments about how this or that Early Church Father was or wasn’t wise. They are our Saints no matter what we may think of them.
It wasn’t until recently that I found out I have a real problem with respect to judging others. I think I got to the point where I was judging without even noticing it. I guess it became second nature to me, and I didn’t even realize it until I became somewhat paranoid. I’m happily working on overcoming this.
The fact is we are all sinners, and this does not exclude our Early Church Fathers. I cannot judge St. John Chrysostom for humiliating Eutropius in front of thousands of people or betraying his friend Basil because I am a sinner too.
As a side note, sometimes reading about some of these issues makes me feel like I’m watching a soap opera or something, and I don’t even watch soap operas.
Take care and God Bless.
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mikokiko
Posts: 1233
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
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Jul 18, 2010 - 06:32 PM |
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This is not about judging others, but you do make a good point about that. It is wrong of me to say that David had sinned in commiting adulterey with Bathsheba? Yet I have no mind he is a greater man than any of the Church Fathers, let alone the pople on these forums. What we must do, is learn to not repeat mistakes that we're made that is all. I undersand that these Church Fathers were incredibly holy people, when compared to all of us. But we must also recognize that they are not perfect, when compared to the Lord Jesus. In that way, we must be able to filter the good things (which are many I assure you), from the few bad things (few of course is a relative word) they did.
God Bless |
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Ranya+++
Posts: 77
Joined: Jul 30, 2005
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Jul 20, 2010 - 08:06 PM |
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| mikokiko wrote: |
| This is not about judging others, but you do make a good point about that. It is wrong of me to say that David had sinned in commiting adulterey with Bathsheba? |
I think in some ways it is about judging others, or it's a form of judgment. I also don't like it when people shine light on sins that have been committed by our Saints. They were human too. If they were still alive, would we be talking about their sins? I think it is somewhat inappropriate. Put yourself in his shoes, would you like someone shining the light on your sins?
I think you make a good point about learning from other people's mistakes, but I think we should also realize that in some ways we hurt others if we focus on their sins. Even though our Saints departed long ago, they are still very much alive in Spirit. I can assure you, they can hear what we say about them.
Take care and God Bless.
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mikokiko
Posts: 1233
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
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Jul 20, 2010 - 11:39 PM |
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That's great, if there is no problem pointing out and learning from someone's mistakes, then there should be no problem in me pointing out the mistakes in our fathers from the fast, they certainly weren't immune from error. If we are to glorify them, we certainly should be careful to recognize what things they did that were faults, before we glorify that too. I am not judging anyone here.
Judging is a lot more of an issue when it gets personal. But I think it would be insane to call me being judgmental because I say that King David, who we all venerate, was wrong in committing Adultery and Murder? Or, take it to an extreme, am I being judgmental in declaring Adolf Hitler a mass murderer and a horrible dictator?
Being judgmental, would be, like me calling everyone on these forums horrible people, or saying that you are stupid etc. Or for example, saying that "all Jews are savages and are the wretched of humankind." That's being judgmental.
God Bless |
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CopticSoldier
Posts: 836
Joined: Jan 24, 2004
Location: Melbourne, Australia.
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Jul 21, 2010 - 01:41 AM |
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Hi Guys,
I asked Fr Gregory (formerly Grigoorii) what he thought and this is his verbatim response:
| Grigoori wrote: |
Hey Andrew,
I suppose that I agree with what you seem to say. Political correctness - as demanded in post-modern relativist society - is a poor standard to measure Christian teaching concerning morals and dogma. Christianity is an exclusive religion - not an inclusive one such as Hinduism. Truth is one, singular, an definitive. Truth is a Person - Jesus Christ. Period. End of discussion (if indeed there ever was one).
Love in the face of relativism is not to bow and give in to it, but to oppose it. In dutch we have a saying: "Gentle doctors leave stinking wounds." The saying is true.
That said: there are definitely prejudices common to society today as back then which have no basis in truth but are libel, slander, and poisonous lies. Sadly these find their way into the Church too. The Fathers are not immune to their "cultural context" and neither are we. In today's Romania - an Orthodox country (in theory) - the proverbial Jews are the "gypsies" - of whom everyone knows that they steal, bribe, and abduct and eat your children. The Gypsies are maltreated and fiercely persecuted as the "new right" sweeps across Eastern and Western Europe. Such persecution is possible because of the deep prejudices embedded in Romanian "culture."
The trouble is that many BELIEVE the cultural pattern concerning the gypsies in Romania is true. Because they believe it to be so, they also see confirmation of the cultural pattern everywhere. Interestingly, when an investigative journalist went to the Gypsies and asked them about it and went "under cover" with them (granting the ppl filmed immunity on film) many of them actully DID fit the pattern! They had little choice because the social pressure would not allow them to have real jobs ... So they resort to pick-pocket crime rings, etc. Abducting and eating Romanian babies has not been established (of course) ... Some parts of the pattern are false and slanderous indeed. Others held true.
I wonder ... Given the same dynamics in a different time, in a different culture ...
Iow the question of the anti-semitism of the Fathers is complicated and not to be judged too easily from a post-modern point of view. As far as "worshippers of satan" and all that ... What does Jesus reveal to John about the Nicolaites? Or what does Jesus say to the Pharisees about whom they have for a father? And as you yourself pointed out ... the OT prophets could be understood as anti-semite too. Are they?
I think not. The rhetoric against the Jews is mostly a continuation of the biblical pattern established by the OT prophets and ultimately by Jesus Himself. Yes it is a "judgment" but it is a divine judgment copied from the Scriptures. We are not to judge, so I read, but we can repeat what God has revealed in Scripture as judgment ... At the same time we need to remember that we are "Jews after the spirit" - real Jews. Whatever Scripture says about "them" it by those very same words says about us, and our Church. In Scripture we find a "providential pattern" of reality so that the Jews are us. What the Fathers say about the Jews concerns us, when the Fathers - or ourselves - give ourselves to inhospitable libel and slander the words condemning the Jews for this offense condemn us also. We had better learn to have compassion ... Mercy, says St. James, triumps over judgment.
Otoh none of this justifies maintaining the use of false prejudices nor does it justify the use of them to persecute anyone. Jews do not abduct and eat babies any more than do the Gypsies - for example. It is still true, however, that those who oppose Jesus Christ and Christianity even by means of twisting Scripture "have the devil for their father" and do not worship/know the true God revealed in and as Jesus Christ. I suppose I would say that anti-semitism is the perpetuating of slander and libel as a justification for persecution - of which we and our fathers are undoubtedly guilty - but the Word of God cannot be denied or diminished. Christianity is either/or not both/and in respect of the basics of our religion.
In IC XC,
Fr. Gregory + |
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Ranya+++
Posts: 77
Joined: Jul 30, 2005
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Jul 21, 2010 - 08:29 PM |
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| mikokiko wrote: |
That's great, if there is no problem pointing out and learning from someone's mistakes, then there should be no problem in me pointing out the mistakes in our fathers from the fast, they certainly weren't immune from error. If we are to glorify them, we certainly should be careful to recognize what things they did that were faults, before we glorify that too. I am not judging anyone here.
Judging is a lot more of an issue when it gets personal. But I think it would be insane to call me being judgmental because I say that King David, who we all venerate, was wrong in committing Adultery and Murder? Or, take it to an extreme, am I being judgmental in declaring Adolf Hitler a mass murderer and a horrible dictator?
Being judgmental, would be, like me calling everyone on these forums horrible people, or saying that you are stupid etc. Or for example, saying that "all Jews are savages and are the wretched of humankind." That's being judgmental.
God Bless |
I think you brought up some good points about learning from other people's mistakes, but I guess I have a different opinion on how one goes about doing that.
I will probably just leave it at that, as I am not as knowledgeable as you are in Patristics. As I continue to read the writings of the Early Church Fathers, I will appreciate the good they offered us. I will not be focusing on their flaws or sins because I want to accept them the way they were, just as God accepts us and loves us the way we are.
I can’t remember where I heard this, but I once heard that in the very moment we sin, God loves us. God is truly merciful and loving.
May our Lord ease any frustrations you may have had and grant you peace.
“He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God” (Micah 6:8).
Take care and God Bless.
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Truth.Seeker
Posts: 806
Joined: Feb 25, 2008
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Jul 23, 2010 - 07:01 AM |
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Fr. Gregory did a great and comprehensive job, so I won't comment on that topic, but just to ease Ranya's concern:
It is perfectly okay to say that a Father was wrong on something (if the reason is legitimate). There have been Fathers that have said that other Fathers were wrong.
For example, St. Athanasius, in arguing against Arianism said that if they say "there was a time when the Son was not" and we know that the Son is the Wisdom of God, then they are saying there was a time when God was without His wisdom. On its face, a seemingly great argument.
St. Augustine points out that that argument brings the following question: do the Father and the Holy Spirit not have Wisdom in themselves, as if to say that only the Son provides the Wisdom in the Holy Trinity? And he answers - of course not, each of the Persons of the Trinity have Wisdom in themselves.
So, there you have it, a great Father pointing out a mistake in another great Father - that's just fine.
| Ranya+++ wrote: |
As I continue to read the writings of the Early Church Fathers, I will appreciate the good they offered us. I will not be focusing on their flaws or sins because I want to accept them the way they were, just as God accepts us and loves us the way we are. |
Mikokiko is not talking about rejecting or accepting the Fathers, he's talking about rejecting their "flaws or sins". For example, Sts. Theophilus and Cyril are mentioned in our Commemoration of the Saints two names away from St. Chrysostom. Sts. Theophilus and Cyril had St. Chrysostom deposed, and he was not "brought back" into the Alexandrian Church until after his death.
God loves us, but hates our sins. Let's not down-play sins here, the Logos became incarnate and died because of these sins of ours.
| Ranya+++ wrote: |
May our Lord ease any frustrations you may have had and grant you peace. |
Knowing Mikokiko, he is not frustrated at all, he's calmly and intellecually pointing out flaws. It is because the Fathers have so much weight, that it is all the more important to point out what any of them got wrong, so as to alert the un-knowing. |
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mikokiko
Posts: 1233
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
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Jul 23, 2010 - 10:24 PM |
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Thanks a lot for the clarifications Truth.Seeker! Yes, Fr. Grigorii, did a wonderful job of concluding the issue succinctly.
God Bless |
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Ranya+++
Posts: 77
Joined: Jul 30, 2005
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Jul 24, 2010 - 07:23 AM |
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| Truth.Seeker wrote: |
| Knowing Mikokiko, he is not frustrated at all, he's calmly and intellecually pointing out flaws. |
It’s great that all of you guys are having an intellectually stimulating discussion about our Early Church Fathers, but to be quite honest, the point of the these discussions shouldn’t be solely based on the intellect. These discussions should move the spirit too.
I’ve found not only on this thread, but on other threads as well, the main focus was to have an intellectually stimulating discussion. It really comes down to how one approaches the writings of the Early Church Fathers. One can primarily approach the writings of the Church Fathers to benefit intellectually, or one may choose to primarily benefit spiritually. I’m not going to be spiritually moved by a lot of these discussions because the focus tends to be primarily on the intellect.
Some of the simplest people I have met, probably never read a word from the writings of our Early Church Fathers, but their words and their actions definitely moves the spirit of others, and you know they are inspired by the Holy Spirit who is in them.
If you want to look for flaws in people, you will find them. If you want to point out people’s sins, you will find them. No human being, whom God created, on this Earth is without flaws and sins. If we focus on their flaws or sins, then we are missing the point of what it means to be a Christian.
| Truth.Seeker wrote: |
| God loves us, but hates our sins. Let's not down-play sins here, the Logos became incarnate and died because of these sins of ours. |
I wasn’t downplaying sins. I know God hates our sins, but he loves us despite our sins. He has compassion and mercy on us. He understands we are sinful. That is why we receive Him in the sacrament of The Eucharist for the remission of our sins. Nonetheless, perfection is not achieved in one day. We are sinners. We journey through our entire lives working on overcoming our sins so that one day we may be united with our Lord. Christianity is a journey. Our faith is a way of life.
So one can spend his/her entire life rejecting other people’s many, many, many, many sins and flaws, but life is too short to be focusing on that.
| Truth.Seeker wrote: |
| It is because the Fathers have so much weight, that it is all the more important to point out what any of them got wrong, so as to alert the un-knowing. |
When we were Baptized and received the sacrament of Chrismation, all of us received the Holy Spirit, correct? We all have a conscience, correct? I don’t really need you or anyone else to tell me the difference between right and wrong. My conscience and the Holy Spirit in me do a good job of telling me the difference.
Even if one is not a Christian, he/she still has a conscience allowing them to distinguish the difference between right and wrong. God created us this way.
Again, I really don’t have much else to contribute in this thread, and it seems everyone else here is content with how it previously ended.
May our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ continue to pour out His love and have mercy upon us like a continuous waterfall.
Take care and God Bless.
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mikokiko
Posts: 1233
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
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Jul 25, 2010 - 01:20 AM |
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K Ranya, no one is focusing on the Church Father's flaws here. There is a difference between pointing out, and focusing. I'm simply pointing out so we know. But don't you think that if Church Father X, and there are a few out there (like Origen and Tertullian) who has heretic teachings in his writings, it is not good to point them out? No one said to focus on them, but we should be educated and no so we don't repeat these mistakes. That's all, no one keeps focusing on the fact that St. Simon the Tanner mistakingly plucked his eye out. Or that Origen castrated himself. That's all.
God Bless |
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Truth.Seeker
Posts: 806
Joined: Feb 25, 2008
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| Posted:
Jul 25, 2010 - 07:31 AM |
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Having talked to many people with your outlook on things before, I know that this post of mine will fall on deaf ears, but I'll write it anyway.
| Ranya+++ wrote: |
So one can spend his/her entire life rejecting other people’s many, many, many, many sins and flaws, but life is too short to be focusing on that. |
How exactly did we go from pointing out one negative prejudice in the Fathers to spending our whole lives focusing on people's sins?
Do you know what happens when you start talking with your emotions? You write long posts about strawmen. A "strawman" is when someone changes the point they are trying to refute into a ridiculous point, then starts refuting the ridiculous point that they have created. It makes the point easy to refute - only problem is that by the time you're finished, you haven't even addressed the original point.
Trust me, I know you did not even intend to do this, but this is what you did.
Pointing out ONE general negative prejudice by the Church Fathers has been turned by you into:
1) Us being a bunch of logical machines that solely focus on intellectual exercises and neglect our spirits.
2) Us FOCUSING on the flaws of the Church Fathers, as if that's the only thing we've ever talked about.
So, in the words of the very spiritual St. Basil the Great:
[quote = "St. Basil the Great"]"The very obviousness of the absurdity makes it difficult for us to find arguments to confute their unreasonableness; so that really their folly looks like an advantage to them; just as soft and yielding bodies offer no resistance, and therefore cannot be struck a stout blow."[/quote]
By your standards, that may have been one of the most spiritually useless things ever written by anyone. Do you know what he just said? Sometimes, if someone is making extremely little sense, you can't even answer them, because there's nothing concrete to even address, and they go away thinking they made a great point.
Again, all of this is probably falling on deaf ears, and you are probably thinking I am being intellectually condescending and malicious. Typical. However, read this again after the pride is gone and you might benefit from it.
| Ranya wrote: |
I don’t really need you or anyone else to tell me the difference between right and wrong. My conscience and the Holy Spirit in me do a good job of telling me the difference. |
The Fathers would frown upon this statement. It is full of pride.
P.S. As you read more Patristics, you will notice that 80% of the time, they write in this intellectual way that you are not a fan of. In fact, they became "The Fathers" because of how much sense they made. In fact, by your standards, if they had just focused on what's spiritually right and spiritually wrong - you would find them very useless .
It all works together you see:
Matthew 22:37
Jesus said to him, ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ |
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Truth.Seeker
Posts: 806
Joined: Feb 25, 2008
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| Posted:
Jul 25, 2010 - 07:45 AM |
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| Mikokiko wrote: |
That's all, no one keeps focusing on the fact that St. Simon the Tanner mistakingly plucked his eye out. |
Miko,
No way man. EVERY morning when I wake up, I say, "Why St. Simon, why?"  |
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mikokiko
Posts: 1233
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
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| Posted:
Jul 25, 2010 - 06:44 PM |
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| Quote: |
| No way man. EVERY morning when I wake up, I say, "Why St. Simon, why?" |
Yeah man...it's just that one thing, that I keep pondering about through the night watches.
God Bless |
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Ranya+++
Posts: 77
Joined: Jul 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Jul 25, 2010 - 06:53 PM |
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I'm not upset with the comments you made Truth.Seeker and mikokiko. I know other people have been praying for me because I felt their prayers. I thank those who have prayed for me. + + +
You guys are my brothers in Christ. I hope you will forgive me, as I am a sinner.
May our Lord continue to pour out His goodness upon us. May we learn to love each other as He commanded us to do.
"'You shall love your neighbor as yourself'" (Matthew 19:19).
Take care and God Bless.
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mikokiko
Posts: 1233
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
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| Posted:
Jul 31, 2010 - 01:53 AM |
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Ranya, forgive you for what? You never did anything wrong to be forgiven about it. We are just answering your arguments  . No hard feelings here like you said.
God Bless |
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